tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post7317325461875935329..comments2023-06-07T05:17:59.864-04:00Comments on At Land's End: Exegesis on Romans 8:28-39Justinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00287958045130787373noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-7835035509235703392014-06-16T11:58:27.091-04:002014-06-16T11:58:27.091-04:00Justin, thanks. Your writing is very biblical. I b...Justin, thanks. Your writing is very biblical. I believe you did an exegesis for this. And thank you for strengthening my faith. Greetings from Jakarta. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13938015488808488630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-9715341253747203622010-06-19T10:21:00.866-04:002010-06-19T10:21:00.866-04:00If it is the whole of scripture you are considerin...If it is the whole of scripture you are considering then I would submit that there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what you have read; unless you temper your reading of scripture with the book of Mormon, in which case the misunderstanding is understandable. The Misunderstanding seems to be over the role of obedience in a believer's salvation. Obedience is not salvation, but a product of true regenerate salvation. I addressed this to the youth group and have posted the lesson on www.ncfchurch.org. Feel free to review it. The questions you ask imply that God cannot influence man's will. Indeed, implied by your question, God is not sovreign and therefore not God. Also, predestination does not mean "forced.". Words have meaning beyond what we would simply like them to mean. Although God would be perfectly justified to "force" us, the fact remains that predestination is not force.<br /><br />Paul was not speaking specifcally in context of persecution here, nor to terrified believers. He was writting to promote the unifying spirit of the Gospel to a church comprised of Jews who viewed their salvation as a product of their nationality as well as their adherence to the law, and Gentiles who were previously excluded from salvation by OT scripture. So his message becomes such that both Jews and Gentiles can be combined by faith and therefore represent, not a new Israel, but the real Israel. So if your statement is that obedience can save I have cited clear cause tobibkicslly refute that statement. This has to do also with the issue of judgement which you commented on elsewhere. God's love contains within it an element of judgement, as does Christ's. By your testimony this would disqualify God as showing love. God has judged all of humanity as sinful. This reason alone is why his love is so amazing. We recieve love from judgement. If we were not judged in this way then Jesus would not have needed to die. But we were and he did and so, true Christ like love carries with it a sense of judgement.<br /><br />Our condition of innate sin requires that we cannot influence our salvation. "there are none righteous, no not one. There are none who seek God...". Those familiar verses, and others, of scripture testify that no body is able to seek God, or decide to follow him, or make any self-willed act towards God. It is God who seeks, who saves, who justifies, and who glorifies; not us. Our sin verifies that; it does not nullify it. How can it?<br /><br />Finally, and perhaps the most compelling evidence...if we must add our obedience to Jesus' work on the cross, then what he did was no enough. We know that he did entirely enough and therefore we mustn't and cannot add to it or take away from it. So I ask you, what is your salvation founded upon? Your works and ability to obey? If so then I pitty you and will continue to deliver the truth and beauty of scripture to you. If it is based on the finished work of Christ, in and of itself, not needing any added action of human will, then you stand in starck defiance of Mormon doctrine.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00287958045130787373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-23779594138351804382010-06-19T01:20:35.555-04:002010-06-19T01:20:35.555-04:00I do (respectfully) disagree. I take into account ...I do (respectfully) disagree. I take into account the whole of the scriptures. For there are multiple verses that tell us about obedience and that we must follow Christ. Did Heavenly Father force the children of Israel to do anything? No. He gave them time to prove themselves to him, yet time and time they chose false Gods and sin. Now why would our loving and patient Father force us to do anything? Do you force your children... and I'm not talking about broccoli! :) Did Heavenly Father want David to fall and sin? Why didn't He force him to be saved and prevent David from the whole murder/fornication bit? Because that's not the nature of our Father. We have choices. How excited are you when you give your child a choice and he chooses good!<br /><br />Now as for verses 38-39, one thing does nullify that... and that is when we sin, for no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven. (do you disagree with that statement?) Paul was speaking to Christians who were terrified, who were being persecuted... He offered hope and the light of Christ. Now is Paul a hypocrite?<br /><br />Absolutely not, just a different audience! To the saints of Ephesus (Chapter 5 verse 5) He states, "For this ye know, that no whoremonger (seriously love that word) nor unclean person nor covetous man, who is an idolater hath any ingeritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."Sofia's Primary Ideashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09757655354773987673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-14498814797984392312010-06-18T22:16:53.092-04:002010-06-18T22:16:53.092-04:00In consideration of the literary and historical co...In consideration of the literary and historical context of these verses it would be fair to say that I infer nothing. The truth of these verses is inescapable, especially in the context of verses 8:38-39...I said about these verses:<br /><br />"It is transparently clear at the end of verses 38 and 39 that we must not have a single thing to do with our salvation or the powers listed therein (death, life, angels, demons, present, future, height, depth), all of which are greater and more powerful than we are, could surely overcome us. It is only by a power greater than all of these we are saved, kept, and glorified."<br /><br />I am not sure how one would rightly analyze this passage of scripture (Romans 8:28-39) and come up with another conclusion. Paul is VERY explicit in his discourse. In fact, if we are able to influence our salvation, it would go against Paul's entire argument in the book of Romans and therefore nullify it.<br /><br />If you disagree, how would you interpret these verses...taking into consideration the time period and historical environment this letter was written in, as well as the immediate literary context? Since the purpose of a letter can only be determined by the writer, we must seek to find Paul's meaning of the words he uses, so you must also look at the sentence structure. All these things I have done in this paper. Please feel free to do the same and tell me what you come up with. Thanks.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00287958045130787373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-84299353204072439812010-06-18T01:55:46.830-04:002010-06-18T01:55:46.830-04:00Justin, I'm totally confused by this. Are you ...Justin, I'm totally confused by this. Are you inferring that Heavenly Father "forces" us to be saved? ("because if God wants you there is no way to resist.") Jesus Christ, His Son, lived a life of peace as the lamb of God. He gave all the "choice" to follow Him. He invited, "Come" not get over here right now. Faith without works is dead. While I agree that there is no other way to be saved, but through the atoning blood of Christ, I believe that is only after all we can do on our part.<br /><br />"Choose ye this day whom ye will serve... but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."<br />God has given us everything, the only thing that is our's is the choices we make.Sofia's Primary Ideashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09757655354773987673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-72669649984899319622010-05-27T18:19:11.376-04:002010-05-27T18:19:11.376-04:00I was getting a little worried about my ability to...I was getting a little worried about my ability to understand what was going on...=)Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00287958045130787373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-38272814787555257772010-05-27T15:50:06.059-04:002010-05-27T15:50:06.059-04:00Maybe we don't disagree as much as it appeared...Maybe we don't disagree as much as it appeared. My contention is that the Greek term for "reckon" means Abraham's faith itself was reckoned as a righteous act. We both clarified that this wasn't 'merit'.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-37528847921723372022010-05-27T08:50:46.403-04:002010-05-27T08:50:46.403-04:00So I am confused now...what exactly is it that you...So I am confused now...what exactly is it that you disagree with me on?Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00287958045130787373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-3308808719298867262010-05-21T13:06:06.328-04:002010-05-21T13:06:06.328-04:00Well, I wouldn't say it originates in us, as i...Well, I wouldn't say it originates in us, as if it were our own power. Faith is a gift, we can't do anything with God giving it, yet God wont forgive unless that gift is exercised. <br /><br />This reminds me of James 4, <br />"6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you." <br /><br />This is not to say we do this of our own power, we're enabled to do it, but we still do it.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-47153356101472205242010-05-20T21:45:30.907-04:002010-05-20T21:45:30.907-04:00Your sentence makes sense but I am not sure your p...Your sentence makes sense but I am not sure your position does. Consider this...how would your stated position address the fact that there were divisions in the Roman church between Jews and Gentiles? It seems to me that your position gives the Jews the upper hand, when in fact that would not be consistent with Paul's over-arching message of unity within the Church. Also, if God deems X necessary then wouldn't it still be God's work? I'm not convinced that God deems anything necessary, so much as He chooses what will happen, and that long prior to our prayer. The point of our faith, obedience, prayers, etc. is to grow us into those who share His desires, values, etc; not the other way around. Your position requires that circumstances originate in, and of us, and God reacts with a yes or no answer. This position does not resonate in scripture. Context is key my friend.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00287958045130787373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-4046677311232980882010-05-20T10:57:04.139-04:002010-05-20T10:57:04.139-04:00Not 'merit', but receive by asking God for...Not 'merit', but receive by asking God for it in the right way. If you pray for X, and God deems X is necessary to be answered, you don't 'merit X'. Does that make sense?Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6077791933049317867.post-78358099761236933522010-05-20T06:56:39.494-04:002010-05-20T06:56:39.494-04:00So you're infering, grossly out of context bot...So you're infering, grossly out of context both in terms of my writing and the Biblical testimony I might add, that one may merit righteousness?Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00287958045130787373noreply@blogger.com