I would like to start this post, the next in a series looking at the Biblical support (or lack thereof) for the Mormon doctrine of spirit children, by quoting myself so my readers may understand the context from which this post is derived…
"It was recently put to me in a Facebook conversation most of you probably saw from my post on June 6 at 8:13 am, to address some key doctrinal claims of Mormonism. It is my assertion that Mormonism is essentially not Christianity. In an effort to be completely transparent I will let all my readers know at the outset that I believe Mormonism to be a complete misrepresentation of the Christian Bible. Likewise, I believe the Book of Mormon, as well as supporting texts like the Pearl of Great Price, to be heretical and simply unhelpful and confusing to a correct understanding of the Christian Bible. All Mormon texts are decidedly NOT God’s word. The proceeding commentaries will be proof of my statements.
For the purpose of promoting understanding we must first define a few things. Within the bounds and context of this writing, when I refer to anything as Christian, I mean not Mormon. That is not to say I am also referring to all things not Mormon, but the distinct differences between Mormonism and Christianity. As is necessary with Biblical exegesis (drawing the meaning from scripture, as opposed to imposing meaning upon scripture), the reader must keep in mind the definitions I have presented above while reading, since it is I who determine the meaning of my words, not the reader. The same is true with scripture. It is the original writer who determines the meaning of the words written, not the reader."
That being said, we must give respect to the author of Jeremiah by stating that the Old Testament book of Jeremiah was written to record the prophecies of Jeremiah, damning God’s people for their disobedience. As a prophet, it is plainly seen that Jeremiah is obedient to his call, yet he also loves those people to whom he pronounces condemnation. Even through his best efforts to cause the people to repent and turn to honor God, Jeremiah still proclaims the destruction of Jerusalem. Indeed this prophecy comes to pass, after which we hear very little from and/or about Jeremiah. The people of Jeremiah’s time were used to the babbling of prophets as there were a great many false ones whose messages were similar. This did not help Jeremiah’s task of proclaiming God’s just wrath upon an exceedingly, and repeatedly disobedient people. Jeremiah’s job then was to tell the people that God’s wrath was imminent! There was no escaping it, though Jeremiah warned them. It was decided, and God gloried in it. This represents the cultural and historical context of the book of Jeremiah. This is where one may find insight as to a proper application of the text to a modern context.
Verses one through four give us a precise timeframe in which Jeremiah’s prophecies took place (roughly 625-586 B.C.). Since we have already established historical and cultural context we can press on to verse 5.
Jeremiah 1:5 – “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
-This verse is submitted by Mormons as proof positive that we are God’s spirit children, who existed with him before creation. How else could he have known us right?
Here in Jeremiah 1:5 we see a few words we would do well to address. Such words as “before”, and “knew”. Since these words are so broad in their application and usage it would be an exercise in exhaustion to explore their semantic domain. For our purposes we can rightly approach this text if we consider “before” as merely “prior to a given time”. “Knew” will be harder to address so let us start with “before”.
Before what or when? The text answers this question as before “I formed thee in the belly” and before “thou camest forth out of the womb”. If we overstate this for the sake of clarity we could say, “Before your father’s sperm fertilized your mother’s egg” and “Before you exited your mother’s uterus”. Even this explanation is lacking, for surely God is able to determine which sperm met with that egg. Here in verse 5, before is open ended. Before what or when? Everything! At this point the Christian has no grounds to disagree with the Mormon. We both agree that whatever happened, it happened before everything was.
So, what happened “before”? “I knew thee”, “I sanctified thee”, “I ordained thee.” Here is where we see the fatal error of Joseph Smith. Where does the text even imply that WE were existent before creation? The text stops at saying that God knew Jeremiah, God sanctified Jeremiah, God ordained Jeremiah. And for what? To do what? To be a “prophet unto the nations.” The context is explicitly indicative of Jeremiah AND NO OTHER. Verse 5 starts a conversation between God and Jeremiah. What purpose would it serve for God to tell Jeremiah that he knew everyone before they were conceived, truly before creation? Well, in the context it would make no sense what so ever. If that were the case then Jeremiah would never get the call to announce condemnation, for the point of the text would be that God knows everyone, even before creation…end of story…end of book. What a clear example of Joseph Smith having no meaningful and/or accurate understanding of scripture. If we take the Mormon interpretation of this verse then we must assume that God is unable to know us unless he has been around us, with us.
“I knew thee” gives a compelling commentary on some of what God knows. When I say that Joseph Smith has no meaningful and/or accurate understanding of scripture, it is because the doctrine of spirit children as it relates to Jeremiah 1:5 fundamentally limits what God is able to know, and consequently sticks out like a sore thumb as a man made doctrine. What I mean is this: if the way in which God knew us was only accomplished by us physically (or spiritually, etc.) being with him before creation then he is limited in his knowledge to what he experiences. Thankfully God is not limited in this way, as we are. God is all knowing (omniscient) and so it is well within the realm of His ability that He knew us without us existing, neither before creation nor after; with him or not. His knowledge is not limited by our existence, whether in spirit form or otherwise. So, the “knew” in verse 5 is also open ended in that God’s knowledge is never ending with regards to time and space, and in every other conceivable way for that matter. To say He knew us before he formed us in the womb is to say that before we were existent, He knew us. Any other interpretation of that statement limits God and is therefore simply wrong.
For good measure I will also bring up another word which has bearing on this subject, such that a Mormon might use it to support the idea that God “knew” us, “before”, as children. I am referring to verse 6. In verse 6 we see the Hebrew word na’ar. The semantic domain of this word is also quite exhaustive, yet we can choose a few translations to emphasis our point. Within the semantic domain of this word (ways in which it can be used/translated) are usages like: youth, young man, servant, child, assistant, boy, young officer, and others…these are all proper usages of the Hebrew word na’ar. Verse six is a continuation of the conversation between Jeremiah and God which lasts for the entirety of the chapter. In the context of this conversation God informs Jeremiah of his purpose (to be a prophet unto the nations) and quickly commissions him and sends him out. The conversation is immediate in it’s application. God tells Jeremiah who he is, and then says, in essence “GO NOW!” So, although God’s knowledge has no bounds within space-time, God is able to confront His creation at any point while making His message immediately applicable. That being said, it would not follow logically that God sends out a child (as the KJV interprets the word). If we have a proper understanding of how words are translated then we can see how the words surrounding any single word, at least some-what, determine the meaning of that word. In this situation, the context demands that na’ar be translated not as “child” but as some sort of early adult; young man perhaps, or maybe youth. Such a translation would be in-keeping with the context and time frame of the verse as we can easily see that Jeremiah is in fact a “youth” (i.e. not a child) when he is commissioned. If he was not a child then there can certainly be no grounds for a doctrine of pre-existent spirit children. Such a doctrine is an abomination to God’s true nature.
Both these words (KJV Translation - child/Correct Translation - youth) are within the semantic domain of the Hebrew word na’ar and are indicative of yet another problem with Mormon doctrine. Mormons hold the KJV of the Bible over and above any other translation. This is a critical failure, yet again, of Joseph Smith, to enumerate a translation. The KJV is nowhere near a perfect translation, and in fact it has been proven to be grossly inaccurate in major areas. It once was that the KJV was the most accurate of any translation, based upon the manuscript evidence which was available in 1611 when it was penned. However, with the discovery and consequent studying of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the KJV has been shown to be significantly lacking in the area of ancient manuscript support.
The issue of the KJV will be next on my plate unless my Mormon friend has more pressing issues I should address. I say “more pressing” because the KJV thing is really a non-issue…the evidence is far too vast and damning to allow anyone who has sincerely sought out the truth to hold to the idea that the KJV is the most perfect translation.
I hope my readers can see that Mormonism is a clear case of misunderstanding being propagated through the years as “Gods truth”. It (Mormonism) is nothing more than sinful man’s human tradition to love himself and make himself God. It is decidedly not Christian, and therefore not the true church, nor the true word. God is not merely God of this planet. He is GOD OF ALL! There is, are, and never will be others like Him. He alone is God and, as such, is worthy of all praise and adoration. He is the God of every planet, everywhere, everytime. One God. One creation. One savior. One eternity.
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Justin, I appreciate your thoughtful response. You use a lot of words, when yet things really are simple. We did live with God the Father before we were born to this earthly life...
ReplyDelete"Mormon doctrine of spirit children" is Christian doctrine that comes straight from the good book. Hebrews 12:9, Acts 17:29, Romans 8:16. We know there are 2 parts to our soul, our body and our spirit. He created them both. If our spirit returns to Him after we die, why is it so far fetched that we were with Him before our earthly life? Would a good Father just send His children off into a war with no training? (Revelation 12:7)
"if the way in which God knew us was only accomplished by us physically (or spiritually, etc.) being with him before creation then he is limited in his knowledge to what he experiences." No one ever said this. Joseph Smith surely never said this. We believe God is ultimate, all knowing and all searching. He is omnipotent more than we can even comprehend.
Jesus had a premortal existence!!
The apostle John, who speaks of Christ as the Word made flesh (John 1:14), opens the book that bears his name by testifying, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1.) In other words, in the beginning was Christ, and Christ was with God, and Christ himself also was a God. The important thing for our purpose at the moment, however, is simply that “in the beginning” was Christ.
The apostle Paul also says that in the days of Moses—more than twelve hundred years before Jesus was born—the children of Israel “drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor. 10:4.)
you may wish to note a statement that Jesus himself made the night before his crucifixion. With apparent longing for the glory of his previous existence, he prayed, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5.)
Job had a premortal existence!!
On one occasion the Lord asked the prophet Job, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
“When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4, 7.)
Now although the Lord didn’t tell Job where he was before the foundations of the earth were laid, the very question implies that Job was in existence somewhere—and not only Job but “all the sons of God.” And when we recall that the Bible teaches that we are the sons of God (“the offspring of God” is the way the apostle Paul phrases it in Acts 17:29), we can’t help but conclude that we were in existence with Job (and Jeremiah and the Lord Jesus Christ) before the earth was created.
Jesus made no attempt to correct his apostles when they expressed a belief in man’s premortal existence. This conclusion is based on an incident narrated in the ninth chapter of John. In reference to a blind man the apostles asked Jesus, “Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2.) Note that their question was not simply whether the man’s parents had sinned before he was born but whether the man himself had sinned before he was born. Their query plainly shows that they believed that the man had been both alive and capable of sinning before he was born.
Jesus explained (John 9:3) that neither the man nor his parents had sinned, but the striking fact is that he made no attempt to challenge or correct or alter their basic assumption that the man had had a premortal existence.
People can talk scriptures all they like, but I believe in the power of divine revelation and I know that if you seek diligently Justin, you shall find. If you knock, it shall be opened unto you. You and I and all those that have come to earth were spiritually begotten of the Father in a premortal world. It's not Joseph Smith's doctrine, it's God the Father's. We worship our God and our Savior Jesus Christ always. Of this I bear testimony to you in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Also, I'm not sure if you know this, but we as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe in a living prophet and quorom of 12 apostles. Every 6 months there is a conference with words from these righteous priesthood holders (which oh my goodness, I hope we can one day talk about! Because you my friend, I can just see as a worthy man of God ready to hold such high honor) Side track...
ReplyDeleteAt a recent conference we were addressed by President Holland of the quorom of the 12. I really really really times infinity pray you read what he shared with us. I think it may give you more insight to Joseph Smith.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=77ee56627ab94210VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
You said "We believe God is ultimate, all knowing and all searching. He is omnipotent more than we can even comprehend."
ReplyDeleteI am confused as to how you can believe this while also believing that God's active knowing of Jeremiah could only mean that at some point he existed with God (whether in spirit or otherwise) before creation? There is a clear inconsistency here. On one hand you say God is all-knowing, while simultaneously implying that the only possible way God could have known Jeremiah in such a way as we see in Jeremiah 1:5 requires Jeremiah's premortal existence. How can this logically be reconciled? Either God has the ability to know someone (even outside of existence) or he does not. If he does not, then he is not God. If he does, then there is a second, and more plausible explanation of the nature of God's knowledge.
In regards to the article you posted...doesn't the willingness of a Muslim to die for their beliefs verify the exact same thing? If not, what differentiates between them?
ReplyDeleteJustin, there is no contradiction or inconsistency. God knew us before he created our bodies. We are His spirit children. We lived with Him in heaven before He sent us to earth. He knew Jeremiah before He was in his mother's womb and because of this supreme knowledge he foreordained him to the ministry to save souls. God is all knowing through all eternity of time. Each of us He knows better than we know ourselves.
ReplyDeleteJoseph Smith did much more than die for what he believed in. He suffered more than you can imagine and I think you missed the spirit of the article. I sent it to you because there is a joy in Elder Hollands message. There are living prophets to guide us and direct us today. God still speaks and we are important to Him.
I'm not really sure if you are implying Muslims and acts of terrorism are comprable to Joseph Smith. I hope not. Because ugh... that's just really wrong. Murder and marytrdom don't go hand in hand and I know that I don't need to explain this to an educated man such as yourself.
Justin, my mom was Greek Orthodox. You know what bothered her most about her church... the judgemental priest. His heart was more on shaming others than loving. He ostrasized members during sermons, he guilted others into larger monetary donations... and church didn't feel right to her. She was done. By their fruits ye shall know them. Justin, I say this with all the feeling of my soul not because I need to convince you or because I want to convert you, but because I really just feel peaceful talking with you. I really hope in no way there are any feelings of contention when we talk, and if so please let me know so I can apologize.
So then one day missionaries knocked at my mother's door. The feelings she felt in her heart were such joy that she to this day can't even begin to describe. They taught her about Christ. The Holy Ghost bore witness to her of the truth. Sometimes people are past feeling and are so consumed with pride and hard heartedness that basic and simple truth go unnoticed. I'm grateful for prayer and that we can always get down on bended knee and ask our Maker for help and inspiration to know what is right. (Hint Hint... :) )
First of all I would like to apologize for any misunderstanding as to the Muslim comment. I don't necessarily equate Islam with terrorism. I never meant to imply any sort of idea to Mormonism. So for that I apologize. What I was trying to ask was why a Mormon's prayer/conviction is any more meaningful than a Muslim's, or anyone else's for that matter?
ReplyDeleteIf you still assert there is no inconsistency I would ask you to explain this to me in a way I can better understand.
No worries, sometimes with internet you don't get the full scope of a person's words. I'll come back to the conviction bit, but I'm off to 2 birthday parties... really, a bit too much cake for my taste. Bedtime should be fabulous tonight :)
ReplyDeleteAs for a simplified explination- you and Sandy had your kids, you raise them in your home and teach and love them. Then they grow up and you send them off into the world to make their own way. This is like how it was in the pre-mortal world.We lived in heaven as spirits, Heavenly Father and Christ taught us and prepared us for our lives here on earth, then when it was time, they sent us on our way to the earth they created for us. Now, the only problem with this example is that we as parents are not perfect, however Christ and Heavenly Father are. They knew all the choices we would make, they knew the best ways to help us... they are omnipotent. It gives a new dimension to our knowledge, we were loved and cared for before we came to earth to gain bodies. Our life here on earth is important and we have very sacred missions to teach others and most importantly, our family, about Christ. There is a purpose to it all! :) It gives new meaning to the phrase "return to heaven". :)
Perhaps I am still not communicating effectively. I completely understand the details of what you believe: I live next door to some missionaries and we have had them over to talk at length. I understand. I simply fail to understand WHY you believe that. To me, there seems to be no Biblical support for these doctrines. When I take the Bible in it's own context and let the text speak for itself I am hard pressed to find such doctrine. If I am simply misunderstanding then I would love to hear an explanation which I can grasp. I fully understand the particulars of this doctrine of premortal existence and I also understand it is what you believe, but I have yet to hear a reason why. Again, I am not trying to be contentious, but I am seeking a firm and reliable explanation that would compel me to turn from my current beliefs. The Bible speaks for itself and, based on my own study, Mormon doctrine turns the Bible into something contradictory and inconsistent. Mormon doctrine turns the Bible into exactly what our culture has come to view it as: a man-made, errant, inconsistent, and unreliable book full of superstitious nonsense. The greatest evidence for the Bible being true is it's historical accuracy and lineage, and it's internal consistency. If those things cease to be true, so does the Bible! I have come to rely on the Bible as sufficient in-and-of itself. It will be a hard sell to convince me that ANYTHING can add to it, or meaningfully comment on it's doctrine in such a way as to change what is clearly presented therein.
ReplyDeleteWhy I believe in the pre-mortal existence: the scriptures I've referenced, modern day revelation from prophets also makes it very clear, personal prayer and communication with God to know if it's true and the fact that when I look at the rising sun I know there is a glorious beginnning and because of this my life on earth is very important.
ReplyDeleteIf you believe in the text of the bible then you will believe that God is the same always. If he spoke to prophets then, he speaks to prophets now. Where Justin, is your prophet? Revelation is as important NOW as it was 2000 plus years ago.
Firm and reliable explanation = study some more and take it in humble prayer to God. Let the Holy Ghost confirm to you- peace and comfort and joy will be spoken to your heart.
Mormon doctrine does NOT do as you say make the Bible a "man-made, errant, inconsistent and unrelieavle book full of superstitious nonsense." We use the Bible hand in hand with the book of Mormon. Your statement is completely false... why would we accept the bible as scripture if we believed it was errant superstition? Offensive. Sheesh :) Yes, we do believe there were some translation mistakes. However, if a little speck of dirt flies onto your chocolate cheesecake are you going to throw it in the garbage? No. You'll still eat it, enjoy it and savor it for the perfection it is. The bible is central to our worship.
Now as for the greatest evidence for the Bible, I completely disagree. I know the greatest evidence of the Bible to be the testimony of the Holy Ghost. By far it supercedes any historical accuracy, lineage and internal consistency. The power of the Holy Ghost surpases all evidence because it bears witness straight to the heart. Faith is not based on facts and signs, faith is based on things you believe but cannot see. Faith is greater than any evidence. Thank you Thomas.
Justin, if you believe the bible then why don't you worship as Christ and the apostles did at a temple? Where is your priesthood? Do you have any biblical support that temples and God's priesthood has changed and is no longer needed now?
And please, I have no clue where you are coming from on the whole Mormon Doctrine turns the bible into something contradictory... please elaborate.
I wish I were more eloquent. I ran across this tonight and thought it was extremely relevant to what I've said... because I'm no prophet, but I do know our doctrine and I'm glad that everything I've said echoes these words of truth
ReplyDeletehttp://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=dfc3558fcc599110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1
Such a grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat article!!!
And my apologies, we're going camping this weekend, so if you don't hear from me it's because we are lighting marshmellows on fire!! Woo Hoo!
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